Relative Importance of Features
I need to toss a new survey up, but I figured I'd throw some ideas out here first. The winter release is approaching code freeze, so now is a good time to think about what we (the Cincom Smalltalk team) should be focusing on. I'm going to put a list up here - please respond in comments or via email. Feel free to bring up things I didn't list here - I don't pretend to have perfect knowledge of everything our customers and potential customers are thinking. So - what's most important to you:
- Interoperability with other environments/platforms (WS*, IIOP, etc)
- Better GUI
- Object/Relational database mapping
- Simpler Application Deployment
- Better Server Tools for Web Development
- Better Server Tools for other sorts of application servers
- Browser plugin support
That's hardly an exhaustive list, but it will do for starters. If you respond, make sure you tell me whether you are interested in ObjectStudio, VisualWorks, or both. If you currently use another Smalltalk environment, let me know what things we could/should do that would make us more attractive to you. Heck, if you aren't currently using Smalltalk, I have the same question.
Thanks!
Comments
VisualWorks New Features
[Runar Jordahl] September 21, 2005 9:38:55.000
General
- Get Glorp ready for production.
- Make a choice of what should represent a minimum loadable component in Store. Some developers view packages as components for classifying related classes, while others see them as components that define the prerequisite graph. Cincom should change Store so that packages are the only component that defines prerequisites.
- Make VisualWorks easier for new users. An enhanced visual appearance of the tools, an even better welcome document, and easier packaging, can get more people hooked on Smalltalk.
Operation System Integration- Support OS specific features, even it using these features break portability of the application.
- Accept that currently, Microsoft Windows is the only target platform for the majority of software vendors. These developers would welcome stronger support for Windows-specific features.
GUIRelative Importance of Features
[Tom Sattler] September 21, 2005 9:45:56.000
Personally, I'd like to see:
> Better GUI, specifically OS widgets
> Simpler App Deployment (see my recent rant in a comment)
> Better server tools for Web Development
Other stuff, I'm not too concerned. O/R mapping maybe, but I have gotten used to "rolling my own" O/R mapping layer; maybe that's just a function of the limitations of Lens, and maybe I'll be dazzled with GLORP when I sit down and take a serious look at it.
.NET VM
[Herby Vojčík] September 21, 2005 10:13:08.000
Do you know what I dream of? Possibility to put vw.dll in /bin folder in my web run by plain ASP.NET webhosting company, and run "Powered by Smalltalk" Seaside (or, better, Bicephale) Web.
That would mean .NET VM (and .NET GUI, if I want to debug it at home).
Herby
[] September 21, 2005 11:46:40.000
I'd like a native GUI and more modern IDE features that concentrate on developer productivity. Remove all the little warts and inconveniences. Stop resting on your laurels of having invented in IDEs twenty years ago and give us something better than IntelliJ.
[Boris] September 21, 2005 12:14:38.000
For us the top 3 would probably be:
On the IDE issue
[ Troy Brumley] September 21, 2005 12:58:13.000
Comment by Troy Brumley
I agree with the general trend of the comments I've seen so far on Store, Glorp, and Deployment.
The IDE issue warrants some discussion. One point of confusion for a lot of newer Smalltalkers is the blizzard of browsers. Perhaps a more structured and controlled environment would be useful? I don't know anything about IntelliJ, but I could move around in Eclipse comfortably in its one big window. VisualStudio users tend to go with the one window, many tabs, approach as well.
Look at these environments, and consider an uber-IDE window.
Keep At It - You're In the Race
[Josh Braun] September 21, 2005 13:20:09.000
As a Java/.NET/Python developer, who keeps coming back to VisualWorks time and time again, here's my two cents:
As for number 1, I realize you're moving to Pollock soon, and maybe that will answer the concerns I have. IMO you should strive to have a toolset as simple and powerful to use as NeXTStep's Interface Builder, especially with the improvements the OS X team has done to expand it. Writing Cocoa native GUIs is easily the most straight-forward GUI programming I've ever done.
Regarding number 2, I recently tried to rewrite a small Cocoa/Python program using VisualWorks to see if I could make maintenance of the program easier. Predictably, the program logic was a cinch and very nice to maintain in VW. But little things, like managing macrons within text, were more work than they needed to be. I ended up abandoning the effort because I either couldn't find documentation fast enough that addressed my specific problems, or it didn't seem possible to do what I needed to do with Unicode text, key bindings, and the GUI. Thing is, I have a hunch the power is out there but I just couldn't figure out how to get over the hump. More experienced VWers might have had an easier time.
Anyhow, keep up the good work. If I have complete control over a new project, I'd hands down recommend VW and Seaside for web apps. Glorp hitting production will make it easier, I imagine, to work with legacy data (right now open-source data mapping frameworks like iBatis make it easier to do some legacy work in Java or .NET IMO). You guys just might take back developer mind-share at this rate, and I hope you do.
[Carl Gundel] September 21, 2005 13:25:05.000
I would vote for:
- Native widgets
- Better, smaller, easier deployment
As for IDE improvements, an Eclipse-like interface would be okay especially for newbies, but I would hate to lose the ability to open the classic browsers and inspectors. And if you don't do anything along these lines a better editor pane with decent coloring built-in, unlimited undo/redo (or at least undo), autocompletion, etc. would be great even if it were just added to the current browsers.Opentalk
[ Charles A. Monteiro] September 21, 2005 14:17:59.000
Comment by Charles A. Monteiro
Opentalk STST needs to work across NATs
-Charles
IntelliJ
[ Charles A. Monteiro] September 21, 2005 14:28:34.000
Comment by Charles A. Monteiro
I'm curious if somebody who knows could enumerate for us what features of IntelliJ that are relevant to Smalltalk development are:
Features..
[ Michael Lucas-Smith] September 21, 2005 18:32:01.614
Comment by Michael Lucas-Smith
Fix the 'gray window, no events' while resizing windows and dragging windows.
Fix fonts for Mac and Linux (and in some ways, Windows too) and for gawds sake, make it get the DPI from the OS, don't assume it's 96.
Add transparent windows to the VM.
SRE: make parcels load faster, work with Terry to add parcels to his stripper, make an easy way to load back in the GUI, integrate the result of his stripper with VW.
Make it easier to manage 'resources' in the image. Things such as images, sounds (or even having .dll's be linkable from within the image contents, not external files) so that deploying without external resources is easier.
WRT to 'one big window', I've used both the one window and multiple window environments and a blend of the two is required. We use the Three Pane Selectors Browser with tabs and we get a nice Implementors/Senders chain happening in there. I have faith in the new GUI based on Pollock, but I really don't want to see an only 'one big window' environment.
Simplify licensing for Small ISVs
[Jason] September 21, 2005 19:55:44.258
I understand the VW licensing model, but I think it is probably a hurdle that VW is yet to cross. I'm sure it works for your bigger customers. However keep inmind you also want those developers who are used to paying $799.95 for a shrinkwrapped box, which gives them unlimited deployment, runtime, no royalties, etc etc
A separate licensing model for small business might be an interesting start. A single one off purchase, which entitles you to v7.x, or a smaller annual payment, which entitles you to upgrades. It's a model which is recognisable to most of them. The % of earnings is kind of scary (Until you crunch the numbers).
Have some sort of independent ISV criteria. A shop with less than 5 people or something. One man shops deploying Smalltalk apps everywhere can only be good for employment opportunities in the future ;)
VA7 is a joke. 7 grand for a license. There has to be a middle ground somewhere. Dolphin certainly has it - And they're about to simplify everything anyway, there'll only be two editions, Free and Pro, which will certainly peg the interest of a few windows only developers I would say.
I still say VW is such a complex beast, there is so much going on in the CHB. Right click anywhere and you are presented with massive context menus. By default hide most of it. Make sure Smalltalk developers know where they can turn it all back on, but for newbies, turn everything but the basic stuff off.. Leaving senders, implementors, up heirarchy, down heirarchy, those sorts of things.
A mode which enables them do do terrible stuff like building an app like they would a .NET WinForms app. Create a Form subclass, and jamp all your code in it. Sure, it's not pretty, but it is also a model they understand.