Productivity and Cost
One of the interesting things to me is how many people will say things like "Yes, Smalltalk is more productive, but...". The next thing you'll get is some statement about how hard it is to find Smalltalkers, or about how the syntax is wrong (what, developers can't learn a new language?). You'll get the same complaints about any niche language - Lisp, Ruby, Python, Scheme - they all get tarred with the same brush.
Heck, the major analyst groups are particularly bad about this - Gartner will admit that Smalltalk is more productive (i.e., will deliver results faster at a lower cost) - and then tell you to use Java or C#. It's always high school in the hallowed halls of Gartner, and all that matters is being close to the "popular" crowd. When you look at the data from SPR (I'm getting the actual tables from SPR; they charge for them now) - you can see hard data backing this up. The tragedy is, this is old news.
Need a more recent example of the productivity? Have a look at all the excitement surrounding continuation based web applications - and then note that none of that is happening in C# or Java (there's some in JavaScript). Why is that? Well, Java and C# - i.e., the mainstream so valued by the analysts - simply doesn't support it. If you want to have a chance of finding the next big thing, you can't find it in the mainstream. If you want a chance to find something truly innovative, you have to be willing to look elsewhere....
Comments
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[] March 18, 2004 14:47:22.783
It's always strange to hear stories where the company is unwilling to train programmers to learn smalltalk or lisp, butt they aer willing to spend megabucks trying to port their smalltalk or lisp product to Java or C# (and often failing to do so.)
Re: [Smalltalk Tidbits, Industry Rants] Productivity and Cost
[mark@talios.com] March 18, 2004 15:18:22.085
Comment on Smalltalk Tidbits, Industry Rants Productivity and Cost by mark@talios.com
Could this be because theres not alot, or enough awareness/publicity of Smalltalk, and/or Smalltalk training available compared to that of C# or Java?
Here in New Zealand theres very little mention of Smalltalk anywhere, apart from a few minor references... certainly nothing for training or education...
Productivity and Cost
[Alex Peake] March 18, 2004 16:04:51.804
(Here with humble opinions again!)
Smalltalk will only appeal to "early adopters" (innovators) (Crossing the Chasm)
You need to give lots of examples of utility (productivity and cost improvements) in their domain. You know my rant about basic business apps - RDBMSs and Data Entry forms - you cannot do it well (productivity and cost) in current Smalltalks (IMHO).
(Or at least there are no good examples)
Only appeal to early adopters?
[Shane King] March 18, 2004 20:50:57.853
How many decades is still considered "early"? Smalltalk is mature tech, not something for the "early adopters" now. ;) I'm not sure there's a huge amount of excitement about continuation based web applications just yet. A few people writing about them, sure. But we'll have to wait to see how it plays out. Paul Graham wrote about the idea using lisp years ago and it never caught on, so I'm a little sceptical that the time for the revolution is now. Give it a few years and if there are many people doing real work with them, I'll be more inclined to agree it's going somewhere.
Only appeal to early adopters?
[Alex Peake] March 19, 2004 0:41:58.367
Shane,
You would need to read Geoffrey Moore's book "Crossing the Chasm" to really follow the argument, but it sort of goes like this.
The "early majority" only buy what their peers buy. Since their peers buy Java, VB, C# and a few others, that is all they will buy.(Currently) Smalltalk users are not their peers.
So the only group left to buy Smalltalk is the "early adopter" (or innovator). It is "early adoption" because it fits (or not) their (innovation-driven) buying model - that of seeing a "close enough" match between the product and what they need, seeing a competitive advantage to going this route, and being "risk takers".
Now we need some help from the "vendors"!
Re: Productivity and Cost
[Malcolm] March 20, 2004 9:42:34.335
Comment on Productivity and Cost by Malcolm
The Open University in the UK has been teaching Smalltalk to 5000 students a year on its flagship undergraduate programming course, and few hundred a year on a postgrad course. Now I'm not there :-) Java has taken over the mindset in the computing department and it will soon be 'Goodbye Smalltalk'.
The course first went out in 1998 so that's around 30 000 keen, bright adults out there with a good grounding in Smalltalk. So I'm surprised it does not have a higher profile in the UK by now.
I think the fact that CINCOM are STILL tustling with the basics of producing an .exe with ease must put people off. People were asking for this eight years ago and the story has always been 'some time soon'. And, I know you 'just' have to go through the documents in the packaging directory. BUT with other programming systems you just to have to click a button. AND the average developer will look for ease of producing an exe.
The OU has been trying to reach a world-wide audience, have they made it to NZ?
Any killer desktop apps out there that CINCOM can point to? (Besides the wonderful OU LearningWorks environment :-) Bottom Feeder is an interesting application that MIGHT be the core of a killer app (have to change the name though! And that fish scares me.)
Productivity and Cost
[Alex Peake] March 20, 2004 11:43:20.252
Malcom,
You say "...CINCOM are STILL tustling with the basics of producing an .exe with ease..."
Add to that ...still struggling with allowing you to produce a good application user interface..
And let's be concrete here. What about duplication of one of the, generally regarded as, most user friendly intefaces -- Quicken?
We challenge Cincom to do that!
Re: Productivity and Cost
[James Robertson] March 20, 2004 13:09:47.031
Comment on Productivity and Cost by James Robertson
Alex,
As soon as you show me Quicken running on Linux, I'll see about that...
Productivity and Cost
[Alex Peake] March 20, 2004 17:02:28.270
James,
"...As soon as you show me Quicken running on Linux, I'll see about that..."
There is a reason Quicken does not run on Linux. Let me know when you have figured it out.