"the system was running while I made all the changes ... the hour or two it was waiting"
Makes it seem as-though Smalltalk is only for small scale software.
While prototyping the changes on a development machine, we'd write a Smalltalk script for the refactorings and then run the script to install those changes on the staging machines, and later install the changes on the production machines.
Code transformation is much more productive than manual refactoring (and doesn't seem to be available in Eclipse, is it available in IDEA?) "Transformation of an Application Data Layer"
FWIW
[James Ladd] September 6, 2004 18:46:43.399
Yes Eclipse can do that.
Details please...
[Isaac Gouy] September 6, 2004 20:31:26.675
James Ladd: "Yes Eclipse can do that"
What's the syntax of the rewrite rules?
Where do I define what the rewrite engine should do?
No hacking of production systems
[Bruce Badger] September 7, 2004 2:28:14.712
Isaac, it's not such a small system, and I wasn't hacking the production system. More detail back on my blog.
... but essentially, we do the same as you describe. The SkillsBase system is developed in VisualWorks and is deployed into GemStone (no VW at runtime). The production system is upgraded through a series of scripts, which themselves have been produced and tested in a system test environemt which is a mirror of the production environment.
Isaac is likely basing his comments on my many posts on modifying production servers. I test locally as well, and then update my server - without taking it down.
Rewrite script in Eclipse?
[Isaac Gouy] September 7, 2004 11:38:02.839
James Ladd: "Yes Eclipse can do that"
Where's the Eclipse rewrite engine documented?
Rewrite script in Eclipse?
[Isaac Gouy] September 7, 2004 11:40:24.871
James: "Isaac is likely basing his comments on my many posts"
No, Isaac is basing his comments on his experience with Smalltalk enterprise apps.
I love the way Isaac just waves away evidence. He's commenting on a blog server that I patch in place - something I've commented on extensively. he then waves his hands in an educated sounding fashion to either make it sound irrelevant or dangerous, depending on the situation. Go ahead and hand wave - we'll be busy being productive, with less downtime.
Shoot first
[Isaac Gouy] September 7, 2004 16:57:56.258
James, do you think it possible that you may have misunderstood what I wrote?
James Robertson: "He's commenting on a blog server that I patch in place..."
No. It's not always about you.I was not commenting on your blog server.
My concern was that experienced enterprise developers would glance at Bruce's blog, assume Smalltalkers routinely hacked production systems, and leave with a bad impression of both Smalltalk and Smalltalkers.
Bruce get's it: "So no, I don't hack live production systems. Not even small ones."
Comments
transformation
[Isaac Gouy] September 6, 2004 13:26:57.507
"the system was running while I made all the changes ... the hour or two it was waiting"
Makes it seem as-though Smalltalk is only for small scale software.
While prototyping the changes on a development machine, we'd write a Smalltalk script for the refactorings and then run the script to install those changes on the staging machines, and later install the changes on the production machines.
Code transformation is much more productive than manual refactoring (and doesn't seem to be available in Eclipse, is it available in IDEA?)
"Transformation of an Application Data Layer"
FWIW
[James Ladd] September 6, 2004 18:46:43.399
Yes Eclipse can do that.
Details please...
[Isaac Gouy] September 6, 2004 20:31:26.675
James Ladd: "Yes Eclipse can do that"
What's the syntax of the rewrite rules?
Where do I define what the rewrite engine should do?
No hacking of production systems
[Bruce Badger] September 7, 2004 2:28:14.712
Isaac, it's not such a small system, and I wasn't hacking the production system. More detail back on my blog.
... but essentially, we do the same as you describe. The SkillsBase system is developed in VisualWorks and is deployed into GemStone (no VW at runtime). The production system is upgraded through a series of scripts, which themselves have been produced and tested in a system test environemt which is a mirror of the production environment.
Re: Why it's just better
[ James Robertson] September 7, 2004 7:47:20.409
Comment on Why it's just better by James Robertson
Isaac is likely basing his comments on my many posts on modifying production servers. I test locally as well, and then update my server - without taking it down.
Rewrite script in Eclipse?
[Isaac Gouy] September 7, 2004 11:38:02.839
James Ladd: "Yes Eclipse can do that"
Where's the Eclipse rewrite engine documented?
Rewrite script in Eclipse?
[Isaac Gouy] September 7, 2004 11:40:24.871
James: "Isaac is likely basing his comments on my many posts"
No, Isaac is basing his comments on his experience with Smalltalk enterprise apps.
Re: Why it's just better
[ James Robertson] September 7, 2004 15:22:38.106
Comment on Why it's just better by James Robertson
I love the way Isaac just waves away evidence. He's commenting on a blog server that I patch in place - something I've commented on extensively. he then waves his hands in an educated sounding fashion to either make it sound irrelevant or dangerous, depending on the situation. Go ahead and hand wave - we'll be busy being productive, with less downtime.
Shoot first
[Isaac Gouy] September 7, 2004 16:57:56.258
James, do you think it possible that you may have misunderstood what I wrote?
James Robertson: "He's commenting on a blog server that I patch in place..."
No. It's not always about you. I was not commenting on your blog server.
My concern was that experienced enterprise developers would glance at Bruce's blog, assume Smalltalkers routinely hacked production systems, and leave with a bad impression of both Smalltalk and Smalltalkers.
Bruce get's it: "So no, I don't hack live production systems. Not even small ones."